*Warning: Navel gazing ahead. And pissiness.*
I should really not review other people's papers when I am pissed for some other reason. Because I should probably not write that the paper ought not make it into the journal they submitted to because it's nothing but fashionable wishful thinking. So these authors will have to wait a few more days for the review until I am cooler.
I had a pretty unpleasant altercation with a relatively new student. New to my group, switched from another one. He's been doing great so far and I thought things were going smoothly, except for an occasional tongue-in-cheek smartypants comment about how certain things are done in the group, which I let slide as they were sufficiently couched and there were always other students around so I didn't want to make a big stink.
Now, my group has a number of high performance desktops and a cluster, and the same operating system and compiler for our main programming language on all of them. Desktops also have several standard programs that we use for non-coding parts of work, such as data processing, graphics, text, presentations, etc. Uniformity makes it easier to develop the code and obtain data, as you debug, compile, and run across different machines that share the same platform and have the same compiler. As additional computing power, students can access one another's computers when they (the computers) are otherwise idle, which is also helped by uniformity. And last but not least, uniformity helps me with paying for licenses and getting upgrades for everyone. These constraints hold for group desktops; of course, students use whatever platform and software they want on their own personal computers, I don't interfere there.
A few months ago, I told the student in question to install another operating system (one that he likes very much) on one of the machines, so we could test a specialized program that does not run on our platform. Yesterday I found out he had actually abandoned his original desktop and is instead using the one with a different OS as his primary computer. When I emailed him that this was not the deal and briefly explained why it was important that the platforms be uniform, he responded with a petulant outburst basically indicating that what we are using was stupid, our compiler was stupid, he didn't like the original platform and if I insisted on him switching back then he would just use his own personal computer for all of his work. *pout*
I have been pissed all day about this. One of my biggest issues when dealing with people is that I get really, really upset (more than average for a given magnitude of the "aggravant") and it takes me a very long time to calm down (longer than average). An incident like this one easily derails me for a day, maybe more. I know all the things you are supposed to tell yourself, that it doesn't matter (which it doesn't), that I don't control other people's actions but only my own (I know that too), that I am in control my own reactions (um, doesn't seem so)... None of it helps when I am drowning in adrenaline.
I showed his email to my husband, the world's calmest person who doesn't react to 90% of the things that tick me off, so he would tell me if I was imagining it or if the student was really being a dick. Yes, big-time dickishness has been diagnosed by Hub as well.
There are many students with whom I never have issues like this one. We get along well -- they recognize that they need to talk to me about things that arise and I am usually pretty flexible when I am kept in the loop. I want the group members to be happy and productive. But, I hate being kept in the dark about issues that are important for our work. For instance, in my first year on the tenure track, a student just vanished (with family) nearly a week before the 4th of July, he was completely unreachable. As a result, I could not get a hold of some of his data and we missed a conference deadline. All he needed to tell me was that he would be out of town, I would not have objected, but would have likely asked that he do his part for the abstract before leaving. After this incident, I explicitly tell each student that they need to tell me if they are going to be out of town, so I am not blindsided. Although I am perfectly sure there are many students who would do this anyway, without being prompted.
Most students actually behave professionally and don't cause me headaches or ulcers. Maybe I should write about them more, as they are the one who make this job very enjoyable. Instead, I seem to always write only about those who send me for Advil or Tums... Sucker for punishment, I am.
This is not the first time I have had this difficulty with students, this know-it-all aspect accompanied by a real nasty attitude. Obviously, I can't discuss anything like this with my colleagues because it is a sign of weakness, like I am not in control. So it's between me, Hub, and the www. This inability to share woes openly with peers is probably a topic for a whole other post...
So I talked with my husband today why there are these students with nasty, very disrespectful attitudes. I wondered how it is that I seem to them, because they feel they can talk to me like that -- do they think I am too nice, do they think I am stupid, or what? Hub said that perhaps it's the fact that I am a woman. That they subconsciously think it's OK (or at least not particularly bad) to be disrespectful to a woman in a way they would never be to a male advisor, because that's the behavior they have seen often and that they emulate, and that the fact that I am usually nice and friendly with my students enforces this view of a harmless female (or do they think I am their mother so they can behave like brats?)
I certainly know that I have faced plenty of young guys full of themselves in my years of teaching high school and undergrads, and you would think I would get more immune to their attitude as I get older... And I am, I but when it's within my research group, the sting is particularly painful as it feels like betrayal. I have been trying to decide why I got so upset. I think I am personally hurt, because I think I have been extra nice and helpful during this student's transition to my group, and I was trying to be very supportive and encouraging, and then I get this snide outburst.
My biggest challenge after an incident like this one is getting over it. Right now, I don't want to see the student at all (he has sent a couple of very apologetic emails to my "are you freakin' kidding me?" initial response). I will eventually calm down, but it's safe to say that our relationship has soured in my eyes, perhaps for good. Still, I have to go on advising him -- he's smart and thorough and has the potential to do very well, and I am his second advisor (you'd think he would be sensitive to that fact as well) so everyone should tread lightly -- and I have to find a way to be OK with that. I am better about finding a way back to a workable situation than I was before, but it's still not easy.
48 comments:
I am a TT young-looking female professor, and I get this kind of disrespectful behavior as well. I too have the same issues you do re: talking to other faculty; however, my department has a couple of other women faculty who are more senior, and I have found it helpful to speak to them because many of them also face similar issues and have good advice on how to deal with these.
One advice I was given was to act cordially but coldly with new students, until they have been in the group for at least a year. But it's hard to carry it out because there is the risk of being seen as too distant.
You have every right to be pissed about this. Also, IMO you are angry because he doesn't trust you, not just because he was disrespectful. His underlying message is "I don't trust that you know what you're doing." I don't see how it's going to work out between you. Who cares if he has a lot of potential? I would drop him.
Been there, by the way.
I think you should issue him a very stern warning. And if he sees you mad, fine. Tell him that YOU are the boss, and YOU set computer policy, and if he doesn't like it he can POLITELY and RESPECTFULLY advocate for a change (and accept your decision as final) or get the hell out.
In my experience, when a guy starts disrespecting me despite the fact that I am obviously senior to him and in charge, if I don't confront him immediately it just gets worse.
Guys like this are assholes, and are part of the sexist overhead of being a woman in a male-dominated field. I no longer show them any mercy.
Exactly what Cloud said. I also have to mention that this crap happens a lot with minority professors. Someone I know is routinely mistaken as a support staff and treated disrespectfully despite ze often wearing appropriate uniform and nametag. Ze is one of the nicest people ever but lays down the law early and consistently to avoid this kind of crap.
Sorry to hear that your student is being an a$$hole about the whole computer thing.
Unfortunately, operating systems are like religions in that they describe a way that people interact with and process data/life. People take their operating systems very personally and it describes a lot about the way a person views life.
Try to imagine that you are leading a group of monks practicing religion "A". Then you start working with a monk who is practicing religion "B". However, he is being disrespectful to your traditions and religious culture. It is going to be difficult to work with him and to be productive as a group as now you all have to perform different ceremonies and rituals.
It is really hard to find/make rituals and customs that transcend different religions.
It is going to take extra time and effort from you and your group to support the two religions. The two groups of monks might mix well with a interfaith group, but it sounds like your group is very dedicated to your specific religion/operating system.
If you have problems now, they are going to be worse later on. For example, image trying to understand code "B" when student is gone. Who will be able to continue the work. What is "B" thesis code does not compile on the new "B" compiler. Who will support the OS "B" if a new update breaks functionality with specific hardware.
Student "B" obviously has poor communication skills. He should not just say that your OS is stupid and that the compiler is stupid. It is like telling someone that their religion and beliefs are stupid.
Perhaps, there might be a really good reason for using his compiler/OS, then again perhaps not, but if he wants to use something different he needs to articulate why "B" is going to be better, faster, lead to more Nature papers, etc. and why "A" is not best for this application because ....
Perhaps he might be much happier practicing with a group of the "B" monks?
-James
James, really? Do you think a tenured professor in a computational field doesn't know how strongly people feel about their OS? Or that there may be a reason to prefer one compiler over another?
James's comment is a textbook example of mansplaining
I had a male student like this, athough he lacked in smarts too. I felt really betrayed in addition to pissed by the disrespect because he didnt seem to realize that I had given him a chance that other faculy didn't. Not that he needed to continually thank me, but he should have been respectful rather than acting like I am stupid and don't know what I am doing. I was so offended that I couldn't even make eye contact with him. I had to kick him out of the lab, and ended up telling him that I wanted him out rather than being politically nice and coaxing him out. I just kicked his ass out the door. honestly though, I think it was good for the other students in the lab to see that not only do I have that power but that if you piss me off enough, I will use it.
good luck. I am so sorry. these situations totally suck.
Wow, that'll teach James to try and join the conversation! GMP has posted something and asked for feedback. When someone tries to help, his response is trivialized. Ouch!
She asked for input regarding her difficulty in getting beyond the bad feelings resulting from the clash, not for an explanation of the student's perspective on the advantages of different OSes. His response is trivialized because it was very condescending and totally beside the point.
Go ahead, keep deleting comments you don't like. If you keep denying reality, it doesn't exist! Right??
Dearest CPP,
Yes, I am afraid that I have indeed deleted your comment. I am just not particularly in the mood for your trolling today. My heart breaks that I have upset you so.
How about instead of lying to your readers that you are looking for "input", you make it clear that all you want is for people to tell you that you are right? It is very rude of you to induce your readers to waste their time based on the false pretenses in your blogge post.
And it's no wonder that you continually have problems with the people that work in your lab: you can't bear to hear a single word that doesn't reinforce what you already think is the case. This is not a good trait for a scientist.
Dude, I have published plenty of your abusive comments in the past, way more than I should have. This is the first one of your comments ever that I decided not to publish because, you know, it's my blog and I'm honestly just sick of being called names by you. Last time I checked, getting a comment published is not anyone's birth right.
The fact that your comment doesn't get published and then you start throwing a hissy fit "Unfair!! You are not letting dissenting opinions be heard!!" is the definition of a troll.
For those fuzzy on abuse vs argument, Monty Python offers a refresher (h/t to Cloud!) and Scalzi has an excellent post on trolling . Enjoy!
You have idiosyncratic definitions of "abusive" and "trolling", as would be apparent had you not deleted my comment. And where do you get the idea that I think it is "unfair" for you to have deleted my comment? This is your blogge, and it is certainly "fair" for you to to be rude and disingenuous to your readers by pretending to be seeking "input" when you really just want validation.
First time ever I agree with CPP. The power faculty enjoy over trainee is leading a distortion in a way science should work. May be the student is right. Maybe in 5 year you may want to change all computer in his OS. You r getting old when u don't want to change your ways.
It's not a question of which OS is better, but a question of respect for the authority and experience of the lab leader. If the student explained the advantages of the OS to the PI and the PI still said no, then the PI might be a stick in the mud, or she might have seen his point but with the experience she has of the way her lab works, might still have considered changing the OS an overall negative. The student can bitch about her to his buddies all he wants, but he still has to follow her leadership if he wants to continue his project under the auspices of her lab. If she had seen an overall advantage to the OS, she might have changed. She might still change, after this round of student projects and grant proposals and papers. You don't have the information to say she doesn't want to change her ways. You do have the information that she is the PI of her lab, responsible for all its functions and the people who dwell in it. The student sees this only from the limited perspective of his project and his coding and his thesis.
I very strongly suspect that if she were a guy, the student wouldn't have done this. Of course I have no proof, and maybe he's an equal-opportunity troublemaker, but being in the same position as she is, and being female, I have had (rare) similar experiences, and seen that my male colleagues have not.
Oh FFS CPP. Stop pouting. You posted threr comments since the deleted one. Has it not occurred to try to post a new comment with the same content as the deleted one? Try to actually show us you can make a point without calling me names.
This is not about getting input about how I run my group and whether my choice of OS is optimal for what we want to do. It is. This is where I will play the experience card -- no, the student does not in fact know better than me. Period.
We do computational physics. It's about solving problems in physics using numerical techniques. The student is behaving as a kid who needs to do a book report and is fussing over not being able to use his favorite pen to do so, whereas his concern should be about the fact that he hasn't read the book yet. The pen I provided will do fine for the report, and it will serve him in years to come. He can also use it well for other reports, others can read and share and build on/improve his reports.
People who want to tell me how to run my group are being condescending. CPP does so routinely, because he thinks I am an idiot and because he's CPP (Condescending Physioprof) so he can't help himself. But my student was as well, as was James upthread, and Anon at 4:06 today.
The fact that I am even getting these condescending comments emphasizes the problem from the main post -- most people would not assume that a student knows better than a tenured prof, except when that prof is a woman so of course she must be incompetent or doing something wrong.
All the mansplainers go read BBBShrew Harpy's comments above. And come back if you can offer something related to the main point of the post on which input was actually solicited, which, for those challenged in reading comprehension, was "how to salvage the advisor/advisee relationship after an unpleasant altercation."
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me." - D. F. Malone
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically mean their opinion has merit. Creationists disagree with evolution, right?
Given that you said the following:
"he's smart and thorough and has the potential to do very well"
and the fact that he has apologized rather than become confrontational, I think that you feel this is worth salvaging, even though much damage has been done and you don't want to talk to him right now. I feel that if you don't want to limp through this project with him, you need to take the initiative and have a one-on-one with him, probably in your office. Your opening sentence could be the one above, as it shows him you value him. The rest could be about how you view his behavior as unprofessional and problematic, and that you have too many responsibilities as the PI of the lab to worry that he is not comfortable with your judgment and your leadership, and might be indulging in behavior that is not consistent with your expectations. And then see what he says.
But I'm not sure how great my advice is, because I, too, would be seething at this point, and I think it's really important you remain emotionally flat during this conversation.
I haven't called you any names, and I don't know why you are so belligerent about this. Since you have invited me to repost the content of my comment that you deleted, and I am a nice guy, I will do so. It sounds to me that you are a micromanaging pain in the ass and have unnecessarily involved yourself in minutiae like what OS your trainees use on their computers. You yourself have asserted that the computations that are scientifically relevant for your lab can be implemented completely equivalently on any OS platform and compiler. If you want people in your lab to be creative, why are you micromanaging at this level of triviality? I think you need to let go of your angry need for everyone to agree with you and free your trainees to be creative in ways you can't even foresee. That is how new science happens. Not by you hammering the shit out of your trainees with your preconceived notions of how everything needs to be done.
Please reread paragraph 3 of the main post. Also, let me explain something about how computational groups in my field work -- people build on other people's work, one piece of software is easily developed piece by piece over several student generations. We have a number of these large legacy codes that are all in one programming language and we have the compiler that is specifically optimized for the processors we have. Having uniformity greatly facilitates further development of codes as new features can be incorporated often based on the work that someone else in the group has done. It's not like the student had his little computer and writes his own thing from scratch and nobody else will use it nor is he using anybody else's stuff. Uniformity in this respect is really critical, otherwise too much time ends up bring wasted on things having to be recoded. The vast majority of the students are very comfortable with the platform we use and, as I said in the main post, the platform supports well both our non coding needs and the excellent compiler that makes the best of our processors. The student is simply not comfortable using the platform we use; I can accommodate a great many special requests to make people happy (e.g. I have two people who telecommute because of family in a city 2.5 hrs away, and they come here only onceeverts two weeks), however this is not negotiable. He has to get comfortable with how the rest of the group operates because he will end up being more efficient in his work and will be able to take the most advantage of all the resources we have. I am happy to hear his original ideas that pertain to his project; the requirement that he use the resources in place should not be any hindrance to his creativity. This is not micromanaging, but it is managing. He should trust me that the resources he has are well suited for what he needs to do ( even though he may not fully appreciate them yet because of the lack of experience with our platform) and instead focus on the intellectual part of his project.
I do computational work. Some students are, honestly more savvy than me in the latest tools. I still pwn them when it comes to the underlying physics and math, and for all their tech savvy I am still much better at spotting bad output. It's like a lab PI who doesn't know the latest version of the machine but can spot bad data from a mile away. I allow them a certain amount of leeway because I want them to innovate. However, I still insist on certain standards, especially on stuff I pay for. It is a balancing act. I would probably strike a slightly different balance than GMP, but we are talking about discretionary decisions where her decisions are within reason and the range of generally accepted practices.
Also, James's point about the psychology of OS preferences is more worthy of examination than CPP's predictable complaints about GMP. OS attachments can be irrational and are a topic that merits discussion among people in mentoring roles.
Your reasons for running the same OS on all machines seem logical, but as someone who once had a micromanager for a PhD supervisor, I must say my sympathies are generally with the student on this one, despite his rudeness.
Having my every action dictated and prescribed down to a truly trivial level (and yes, I do mean trivial - he once tore a strip off me verbally because I'd labelled a piece of lab equipment in the wrong font size) was a horrendous, productivity-sapping experience that blighted my entire PhD. And while you probably feel that your OS preferences are not a trivial matter (for the reasons you laid out in the first few paragraphs of your post), if you articulated them to the student in a "my lab, my rules" kind of way, then he probably disagrees with you.
On the other hand, if you explain your reasons logically and without making obedience to them into some sort of weird power-struggle "respect" issue, yet he still goes against them, then he's being an immature dork and you can do without him!
An addendum to my post at 10:35 on 9/3/12:
Before you act, try taking a step back to see what this might look like from the student's perspective.
He's got a favorite OS, one that is not generally used in your lab. You have told him to install his favorite OS on one of the group's machines for a specific purpose. He was probably delighted with this (perhaps he thought you'd "seen the light", to use another commenter's religious metaphor) and it seems logical that he would then take the opportunity to make that computer the one he generally uses.
The question is, aside from the fact that you didn't tell him to do this (or "this was not the deal", as you put it), are there good reasons why he shouldn't? You've said that the group's desktops are to some degree an interchangeable resource that anyone can use (that's why it matters that they have the same programmes etc.), so does it really matter if he switches to the desktop with "his" OS and allows other students to use the one you allocated to him (assuming he's not hogging both computers)?
I suspect the answer is "yes", for some reason you haven't articulated in your post - but if you didn't articulate it in the post, it seems possible that you didn't articulate it to the student either (at least, not before he took the action). Can you do this once your adrenaline levels have dropped and the emotional bruises have healed? The fact that the student sent those apologetic emails is a good sign that the relationship is salvageable if you want it to be, and as a supervisor you have a lot more power over this student than he does over you (even if it may not feel like it!).
Ugh. I cannot believe how many commenters are defending the student. Regardless of whether GMP's wishes or right or wrong (which pretty much no one here has the information needed to judge), don't forget that the student's reaction was to send a condescending,combative email. This is not justified no matter which way you look at it.
As for whether GMP is micromanaging or not -- don't you guys realize that she has been doing this for a while, and probably has put a lot of thought into how best to run things? She probably worked worked out multi-OS issue kinks a long time ago...
I am really getting sick of CPP's weird obsessive GMP-bashing. WTF is his problem????
Some points:
a) You're his boss. You're in the position of power here. You're supposed to be the wiser, bigger person here. Yet you're acting like his disagreement over the platform is a personal irrevocable offense. This post reads very much like someone complaining his/her teenage kid said they hate them because you didn't give permission to go to the mall and wondering if the kids actually meant it.
b) I don't see how this became gender related in your head. Re-read this text without the gender articles and it's still something that could've happened. I (male grad student) have colleagues that clash with their advisors all the time on stuff like that. I worked with two advisors of different genders and I clash more often with the male advisor, and that's because we operate in different wavelengths.
c) If you're just wondering if this relationship is salvagable even after writing that this student apologized, what you're asking is whether or not if you should forgive him. Well, you're the only person that can answer that question.
I am getting seriously tired of every post of mine that deals with advisor-student relationship bringing in comments about how I should be a bigger person, endlessly understanding and permissive of whatever the students come up with. That's ridiculous -- graduate students are adults and should behave as such with at least the minimal decorum and professionalism in their interactions with their supervisor as well as in their relationship to their work and their future. Blowing off their work (as in a post earlier in August) or sending petulant emails to supervisor would not fly anywhere but in academia; according to many comments I receive, I am actually the one at fault for each instance of student unprofessionalism. At which point does everything stop being the advisor's fault? From the graduate student's perspective, like the last Anon,, is anything ever the graduate student's fault?
Also, last Anon, where do I get the gender angle? How about the fact that you immediately compared the student to a teenager and me to his mother, how's that for gendering? Or the fact that a number of female profs and professionals said they are all too familiar with disrespectful behavior that seems to escape their male counterparts? With all do respect, you are young and a guy, so you don't know the first thing about what it is like to be a woman in a male dominated field. But of course, not that it would prevent you from dismissing a gender-related concern, because of course you know better.
I am getting seriously tired of every post of mine that deals with advisor-student relationship bringing in comments about how I should be a bigger person, endlessly understanding and permissive of whatever the students come up with.
I'm probably inviting a shit-storm upon myself here, but I can't help but think that there's a sort-of Mars/Venus aspect to all this. That is, your posts such as this one are interpreted (mostly by men, presumably) as requests for insights into and input to your problem. Whereas really, you just wrote them "to be listened to" -- or, less patronizingly perhaps, just to vent. Which you of course did disclaim at the top of your post.
It would explain to commenters why you don't seem to appreciate their perspectives, and explain to you why you seem to receive all these unsolicited opinions. Just a thought.
-- a totally new and distinct Anonymous
"deleted, and I am a nice guy, I will do so. It sounds to me that you are a micromanaging pain in the ass and have unnecessarily involved yourself in minutiae like what OS your trainees use on their computers."
That someone who considers himself a great ally to women scientists could leave this insulting, condescending comment, showing no comprehension of the extremely clear situation outlined in the OP, is beyond belief. It is almost frightening.
To anon at 12:52,
There are two distinct things going on here. What you are talking about is a persistent issue in these sorts of internet discussions: Somebody expresses a frustration in a blog post, and other commenters show up to offer some perspective on the other party in the frustrating situation. Whether that sort of commentary is helpful or not is something that has been discussed endlessly at many blogs, and I don't want to rehash it all here.
There's also something more specific to GMP: She has a band of committed detractors. CPP always tells her she's a bad mentor. Somebody at another blog just put up a post insinuating that it's wrong for her to even blog about these things.
I don't really want to defend the first type of commentary, because it does have its problems, but I will say that it is distinct from and less problematic than the second type. One might think that GMP is a good mentor overall but still think (rightly or wrongly) that it is useful to point out the student's perspective in this. Whether or not that is a reasonable approach, it is at least not an insinuation that GMP is a horrible mentor who shouldn't even be discussing this. The stuff that she's getting from CPP and others is worse and more personal.
I kind of wish that we could reset this thread to where James left his comment a few days ago, and leave out all of the stuff by CPP and the flak she's getting at at least one other blog. I think James made a point worth considering, but I also think he missed something. Dissecting that would be potentially more useful than the usual "GMP is a horrible, micro-managing mentor" stuff that always comes up when she discusses mentoring issues.
Also, to CPP:
You are apparently well-liked by many feminist bloggers, and you've called out d00ds for any number of things. However, when GMP, a female professor, expresses frustration with not getting respect from male students, you go at her. WTF? Is she low in some pecking order?
I'm gonna be blunt. Speaking as someone who got kicked out of two labs, students don't get kicked out of labs for being sexist. They do get kicked out of labs for speaking impulsively and disrespectfully. Of course, no communication dynamic is unaffected by sexism in our society.
I would say that if the previous advisor of the student was a woman, and the student does not appear to have any notable problems in "tone" when communicating with men, sexism is likely a large factor here. Of course, if the student has trouble communicating respectfully with everyone, it's no less a problem.
That said, my background leaves me inclined to note that the fact the student did apologize might mean he is willing to learn. If you trust the student to be able to learn highly complicated and challenging discipline, they can also learn professional communication. The whole notion that some people are brilliant at one thing and hopeless at others is wrong; it's truer that some of us are quicker to pick up some things and slower to pick up others. The questions are really how much of a headache to be around the student is going to be while he is learning, how comfortable you are communicating explicitly about professionalism, and how long it is going to take for him to get more competent.
The key to things working is professionalism from you (he has to have something to model), and trust from him that you are trying to help him. One thing you can do is faithfully explain how things you do are intended to help him. After having a student/advisor relationship sour, it is very challenging for students to trust the new advisor; that part has to be built up over time.
"One thing you can do is faithfully explain how things you do are intended to help him."
This is a bit condescending. Clearly she has already done this, in fact she has done this repeatedly by her account. She has also offered the information that the student is doing great otherwise, and that they have apologized.
I agree that modeling professional behavior is crucial here, but I disagree with those who think GMP has the responsibility to do anything other than accept the apology and move on. Special chats and hand holding are her choice here in my opinion and experience. I never handle these guys that way at all. I either ignore them completely and let them figure it out, using other psychological tricks, but these are situation dependent. In my experience in every case the student comes around and ends up liking and respecting me. However these are undergrads in discussion groups or labs. I can't imagine being an advisor to one of these students in a lab. Sounds awful.
CPP doesn't understand the situation re the OS, but imagine his response if a new student made snarky comments during lab meetings about his paper/proposal editing and refused to accept suggestions and wanted to submit his own proposals or papers without taking CPPs suggestions? By his own account he insists that trainees accept every single suggestion.
Posted this at PLS's, not sure will go through.
Crocodile tears!!
I am sorry PLS, but your post smacks of a mercenary hit job irrespective of what you think your intentions were. If you truly cared about "what if word spread about this website and many in your department read all about what a fuck up your PI thinks you are?" (your own words), then why on earth did you link to GMP's post and continued to comment on this episode even after being called out in comments? You come across as only interested in adding fuel to the fire and taking delight when ignorants piled on GMP while all along shedding crocodile tears about student's feelings. Very dishonest of you.
I do not understand where biomed bloggeratti Taliban (scratch that) lynchmob collectively gets off in attacking GMP over a non-issue? This is not an isolated incident. I recall similar (an manufactured) outpouring of "concern" for students and trainees when GMP wrote about a couple of her students having to leave her group, without realizing that in her field a) lab rotations for new students do not exist, and b) most grad students and trainees tend to be international. There was also one instance about biomed bloggeratti blasting GMP for actually making efforts to improve the communication skills of her international trainees. Seriously people, wtf? Are you getting tired of continuously defending the status quo of the current system (whatever that means) against the increasing evidence of biomed trainees' plight, that you have to find some distraction?
And to those apologists trying to explain away the student's abominable behavior, again seriously: wtf? You are not in a better position to judge what is good for GMP's group. I work in computational sciences and we too have legacy codes that work only on certain platforms. When a new student joins in, we go through same issues. So far I have been lucky (perhaps because I am a man), students have come around once I explain a) why we do this the way we do this, b) how many people's efforts have gone into developing those codes, and c) and how hard and time consuming it will be to change the codes so that it will work on new, better platform. But in the event that I have to face petulant behavior from a new student, my reaction will be very similar to GMP, with an additional warning "if this happens again, it will be your last day in my group."
You mentioned that staying upset at people for a long time is a trend in your life. Have you considered getting counseling or therapy for that? I feel like you probably can learn more effective ways to shut off that response if you find it interferes with your life routinely.
Actually Isabel, it is not clear she has already tried to tell the student how her decisions will help him.
The original post describes her motivation for why it is good for her group to operate under her rules. This student has just joined her group, and may not yet feel like a stakeholder in the group. One way to facilitate that transition is to emphasize how it helps him as an individual. And, up to this point, GMP hasn't, at least as she's discussed here. Even if she has, my point is that after having a relationship with an advisor where you can't trust them, it will take a while to get over that. It takes a lot of faith that your advisor is helping you to get through grad school for many people.
In personal relationships, people can take some time off from dating; most students switching PhD advisors have no such emotional buffer period (although PIs frequently take them between 'problem' students; and mathematically also have more relationships going well to bolster their confidence as advisors).
It's also entirely possible that GMP is in one of those situations where there is no honest way to tell the student her requests are really in his direct best interest, but he needs to take one for the team anyway.
Which is fine, but she shouldn't be outraged he doesn't like it if she's asking that (though she absolutely can be outraged how he expresses his distaste).
Also, you are assuming that GMP has told the student he is doing great otherwise, which GMP did not indicate anywhere. My experience with academic PIs is that it is not necessarily typical to do this, but it's not unheard of either. I'd estimate 10% of PIs would say something to that effect while they are delivering criticism.
Anon from September 4, 2012 1:24 PM here. (I don't know why blogger anonymized me)
"At which point does everything stop being the advisor's fault? From the graduate student's perspective, like the last Anon,, is anything ever the graduate student's fault?"
You should read what I wrote and not what you thought I wrote. I didn't say you had to forgive him or that he holds no responsibility. You can fire him. You can sternly warn him (as you already did). You can use this as a teaching moment. My point wasn't that the guy wasn't at fault. My point is you are in the position of power and you're acting like you aren't. You're the boss and managing employees that misbehave is part of the job description. Letting yourself being affected by it is like being a parent that is too affected by their child or being a sailor that complains about being in the sea too much. It's warranted, and hey, it's your choice to be affected by it. But it comes with the territory.
"How about the fact that you immediately compared the student to a teenager and me to his mother, how's that for gendering?"
You can again read what I wrote and note that I wasn't being gender specific. You think dads can't be hurt by their kids being the occasional asshole?
"With all due respect, you are young and a guy, so you don't know the first thing about what it is like to be a woman in a male dominated field. But of course, not that it would prevent you from dismissing a gender-related concern, because of course you know better."
Sure, go ahead and assume things. Like for example the fact that I'm insensitive to the gender ratio in faculties, basically assuming I'm clueless. And that I'm not aware of the aspects of being a woman in academia (despite being having a female advisor, a mom that was an academic and ex girlfriends that complained about the real problems of being woman in science as an young one). While you're at it, just assume I'm also a closeted sexist and think women shouldn't be in science.
You see, I'm not a woman and I may never be able to feel first hand the challenges you have faced. But I'm aware they exist and I can imagine how bad they could be, and some of them I witnessed. Things like interviews in which they dismiss you based on your relationship status or having/not having kids. Salary gaps. Assumption the work was done by the man in the author list. Resentment over assumed reverse discrimination. Lack of respect.
There are a lot of real issues faced by women in academia. Feeling bad because a student assumed they know better and offended you is not one.
SJ, you wrote
" I don't see how this became gender related in your head. "
That is dismissive of gender concerns and the "in your head bit" is quite rude; it goes with the classics such as telling women they are too emotional, or have no sense of humor or whatever when they complain about what they perceive as sexism. And please don't pull the mom/sister/girlfriend card. It's a very old and ineffective defensive used by essentially every guy who has been ever called out as having made a sexist or insensitive remark. If you were really sensitive to the issues women face, you would not dismiss my concern outright (and those of apparently many other female commenters) as having nothing to do with gender and you would not pout when told that your remark appeared insensitive and that don't know what it's like because you don't, since you yourself are not a woman.
Becca, Alex, Isabel, TheGrinch, Anon, thanks for the comments.
Regarding PlS, I grate his cheese for some reason and every so often he gets irritated enough to make something I write into a "teachable moment." While his point about things being written on a blog coming to bite the blogger and possibly the blog subjects in the butt is valid, the tone of his post conveys pretty clearly that he's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart or concern for my students, but mostly because he feels that he needs to slap me around every so often for "having a way with words" that chafes him. I stopped commenting on his blog quite a while ago, so as not to irritate him, but I suppose I can't stop him from coming over here and getting irritated by reading. Whatevs. This has more to do with PlS than with me.
I think privacy is a legitimate concern when blogging. However, my students know when I am unhappy about something they did or I think they have areas that need improvement; if they found out what I wrote, they would probably be surprised about the intensity of my frustration of the fact that I use profanity, but they would not be surprised by the problems I bring up. My group members are the people I care about, and when you care about someone doing well, you have to make sure they get honest feedback on how they are doing. I would be more concerned about some of my colleagues finding out what I think about them, because with colleagues with whom you'll be working for the next 30 years it's important to be on your best behavior even if the colleague is insufferable.
Btw, the latest post of PlS does capture one reality well -- PI's need to keep their shit together. It's doubly important to female PI's, who are always in danger of being perceived as incompetent, too emotional, and lacking in leadership skills. For me, venting online is therapeutic, as talking to peers is not an option (pretty much because you don't want to appear weak, insecure, etc.) And my poor husband deserves to catch a break from always having to be the sole sounding board for all my work-related complaints.
I didn't dismiss your concern outright. I stopped and wondered if anytime I had an issue with my advisor over something like that I wondered if I was being an ass because my advisor was a woman or it was just because I was an non-gender triggered ass. Then, since I had a male advisor at some point, I wondered if I was an ass in a different way and indeed I was: I was more of an ass to him because he wasn't as mathematically inclined as I am. Then I realized that I lost the sense of authority from people when they behaved in a way that I felt they were being irrational and therefore wrong. And then I re-read your post and it seemed that that was the case of your student: he thinks he knows better.
Then I asked people I know (N=2) about what would make them loss respect from their advisor to the point they would blow them off in the way you commented. And they gave answers similar to mine: it's when they think they know better.
So you see, I dismissed it after deep thought regarding whether this is a gender issue and I felt it wasn't. And then I tried to suggest that your conflict stems from disrespect coming from a sense of loss of authority because your student knows better. Then I reminded you that you are in the position of power and therefore you have the instruments to reassert authority here, and therefore you perhaps should just work with it.
Then I wondered, as a secondary question, why was it that you felt it was a gender issue. Which is why I used the expression "in your head". That might seem rude, fine. Substitute that by "your impression" and please accept my apologies for misuse of language.
I honestly think you're trivializing gender issues by attributing a run-of-the-mill lab conflict to disrespect stemming from being a woman. Faculty of all genders get disrespected by students occasionally. Ask your male colleagues to see if they never got a stupid e-mail from an advisee. If your readers think it's because they're a woman, I can only shrug. Being discriminated in a hiring process due to relationship/offspring status is an issue. Having people assuming "the man in the author list did it" is an issue. I even saw students disrespecting faculty for being woman, but it's different from what you're describing: they don't even accept being advised by women... it's a constant lack of respect, not a sudden outburst of anger.
I don't think any of us has anything more to gain from this, so I'll stop here. And good luck with your student.
Those you refer to as the big issues are systemic and many can be addressed through institutional policies, not by individual women.
Trivializing day-to-day incidents of subtle sexism does not help paint you as particularly sensitive. Not being a woman, you don't get to decide which issues are worth getting worked up about and which are not. Every woman gets to decide that for herself. But you are right, I don't see myselft gaining much by a continuation of this exchange
A while back, FSP had a post on "micro-iniquities." There are lots of things that could happen to a man or a woman for any number of reasons that might have nothing to do with gender. Male faculty sometimes get disrespect from students. Some male students are disrespectful for reasons that have nothing to do with gender.
Thing is, while any particular occurrence could have nothing to do with gender, these sorts of things often happen to female faculty more than male faculty. Say what you will about any particular instance, but the overall pattern almost certainly does have something to do with gender.
Alec, the post is here:
http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2009/09/start-seeing-micro-inequities.html
I don't need to comment--it has all been said by women and minorities who suffer through the indignity of dealing with people who feel that they need to put us in our place.
The problem is not this student, it is the next one and the lab in general. What you do determines the future, not the past.
So the first thing to think about is how many people know about this dust up and will the student tell tales. If everyone knows about it, there are several answers
a) trash the student
b) trash the computer telling everyone well, it was an interesting experiment, but it didn't work out and we need the resource.
c) have an os deathmatch, but be sure your favorite os wins. Explain to everyone why uniformity matters for the group (it is obvious) and why XX working on his own os hurts everyone else, making it clear that this shit will not happen in MY lab.
c is probably best but requires serious effort.
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