Wednesday, October 20, 2010

Meddlesome Advisors

Among the comments to my previous post, Heidi and southern prof asked how, if at all, a PI is supposed to address the issue of people dating within his or her research group.

Namely, southern prof asked: I'm a new assistant prof and this happened in my fairly small lab recently whereby two of my students have begun dating. I haven't said anything to them and so far no one's work is suffering but the potential for disruption, drama and loss of productivity is worrying.

Let me say at the outset that I have never supervised two people (students or postdocs) who dated each other. This is probably because I have only supervised a couple of women so far, who both had boyfriends in other research groups at the time, and I think all the men in my group (with one possible exception) have so far been heterosexual.

While I haven't had this exact situation in my research group, southern prof's concern falls under the general and very important issue of how much, if at all, a PI should interfere with the interpersonal relationships among students and postdocs.

I think this question requires one to fall back on one's core principles in running a research group. Sort of a lab constitution, if you will. Mine would be something like this: the purpose of my research program is to (a) advance the state of the art in my specialty, and (b) train new scientists. These two are tightly interwoven and in my mind do not exist without one another, at least in a univeristy setting.

Traning young scientists means that you will equip them with the skills to succeed. Sometimes, that might mean discussing their personal choices, if their choices are interferring with their well-being, their training, or the well-being and traning of others.

Here's an example: one of my students used to keep really erratic hours. He'd be awake at night and asleep during the day, work for long stretches and then crash, take a nap, wake up, recaffeinate, and work until collapsing again. He would also catch any virus around and get sick much more often than my students who kept regular hours, and he often ended up having bad secondary infections. I am no medical expert, but it is common sense that sleep depravation and exhaustion weaken one's immunity. So while I respect that people should have a fair bit of freedom in choosing the hours that they work, he was clearly hurting himself. We have had several long talks on how he needs to sleep at night and work during the day, needs to sleeps enough hours in a stretch, and take the time to eat properly and get some fresh air. Should I not have meddled? The student is an adult, after all. I think not doing anything would have been irresponsible of me, as I would have allowed him to further jeopardize his health.

Another example: presently I have a very good mix of students from all around the world, from several different cultures and religions. They are all getting along very well, and from where I am standing there is no conflict between their personal lifestyles or religious beliefs and working collegially in the group. As long as everyone seems happy and productive, I am happy not to interfere with their interpersonal dynamics. But, this was not always the case. Several years ago I had a couple of mercurial students, one of whom was offensive to my foreign students and was very aggressive about his preferences in terms of politics and religion. Fights were breaking out all the time, and I had to do something as everyone's piece of mind and productivity were suffering. At some point I requested that no discussions of politics and religion happen in the lab. This solved some problems but not all, and the fix was only temporary. Ultimately I had to make one of the problematic persons go; the other one turned out to be fairly easy going once the irritant was removed, and all the other students were relieved.

My point is that sometimes the PI has to meddle. One has to judge according to one's own priorities and ethical standards when to step in.
I think that we as advisors are not just bosses of our students and postdocs, we are also entrusted with their professional development and training, and there cannot be professional development without some personal development and, yes, that sometimes means interactions at a personal level.

Going back to the question of the couple dating in southern prof's lab. I'd say hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

If you are lucky, the students will live happily ever after, become the new Marie and Pierre Curie (sans the radiation poisoning), win Nobel Prize(s) and acknowledge their sage advisor for supporting their relationship.

Worst case scenario, they break up and cannot stand to be in the same room. There is picking sides, plenty of drama, tension in the lab. Productivity and lab morale suffers.

Since you are saying that so far everything looks, you will likely be spared the drama in the near future. Still, my immediate concerns would be:

(a) How is the couple's research progress? I think a small and temporary productivity drop is common whenever students start new relationships, regardless of them being in the same lab. But now that they are dating, it is important for each person in the couple to build (or maintain) their own support group and have somewhat independent graduate school experiences. My husband and I were in grad school together. We didn't work with the same PI, but our PI's were close collaborators and shared student office spaces. Professors would assume that we wanted to sit together, but I was adamant about us NOT sitting in the same office (there is such a thing as too much face time); we wanted our graduate experiences to be our own and I think we succeeded and I think it was important. I recommend it if logistics allows. Talk to them and draw their attention to the fact that now that they are together, it may be a good idea to think about separating their lab work from each other's.

(b) Is anybody else's productivity suffering? Are there people who are embarrased by the new couple (especially if the couple are prone to public displays of affection), for instance people who are modest, perhaps for religious reasons? Is there someone who is jealous? Try to invite all group members to share concerns if they have them, pehaps you can emphasize in a group meeting that harmonious interpersonal relationships in the lab are very important, and that if anyone has concerns that they cannot address themselves they should come see you.

From senior PI's, I hear that they had students or postdocs crying in their office after a break-up or divorce. I don't think any PI seeks this type of involvement in personal affairs, but sometimes may end up facing it. I suppose in this case you simply try your best as a person and an advisor to comfort the trainee, and urge him or her to seek help if they appear seriously distressed.

I think too much personal involvment with one's trainees is bad, but some cannot be avoided. Besides, I am not sure how much exactly is "too much" or "just enough".
I think our duty as PI's is to share our best practices in terms of working as successful scientists in a sustainable fashion. This may involve heart-to-heart talks on a variety of topics. Sometimes being a PI involves cutting a problematic student loose to protect the rest of the group. Often being a PI means being unpopular. But, as is typical when dealing with humans, there is no recipe book enabling one to look up how to deal with a new crisis. The only sure things to fall back on are one's core principles and the strength to adhere to them.

12 comments:

pika said...

In my postgrad department and also where I am now I've seen a quite few of such situations. At one time or another we had all possible couple combinations developing (at least one of each): postdoc-postdoc, postdoc-PhD student, PhD student-PhD student, PhD student-MSc student. It never seemed to be a problem regarding work, except in one single case.

This was in the case of a new couple consisting of a PhD student and an MSc student. It turned out that the PhD student was doing MSc student's work (assignments in coding, mostly). I was teaching this MSc student at the time and, since it was clear that something was going on (the jump in the quality of the assignments happened at approximately the same time as the two of them got together) I asked the MSc student to come to my office hours and explain their results and code to me. The student couldn't do it, so it was clear that I know what was going on and in this case that was enough to prevent any more of this type of cheating to happen.

But otherwise I haven't observed any problems - I suppose the couples were professional enough to not let their private life interfere with work/research. As a PI now myself, I don't think I would interfere either - not unless there was some catastrophic problem with work/research (as in the case of cheating above and even then this was an indirect intervention).

GMP said...

Thanks for the comment, Pika!

DrugMonkey said...

even just reading this gives me the heebie jeebies. No datin' in my lab!!!!

Anonymous said...

I think that these types of situations are inevitable over the lifetime of a lab. In the lab where I did my PhD work, my advisor had trained hundreds of students & postdocs and had seen every combination imaginable (weddings, divorces, cheating, dating, etc.) People spend a lot of time in lab, where else are they going to meet?

When I started my lab, two of my first students started dating and I was concerned, as southern prof is. It turned out well for us, they were married about a year after they graduated. My biggest problem was avoiding treating them differently than any other student (sometimes I'd give one of them a message for the other, etc.). I'd suggest you keep a close eye on it and make sure that everyone in the lab is comfortable telling you if there is something going on in lab that they don't like. That way you can nip any potential problems in the bud. You might even have a conversation with each of them separately about your concerns of how their relationship could affect the lab. But that is likely overkill.

Girlpostdoc said...

During my grad school years, there were several people that got together - they were in the same lab. For one couple things turned out well - they're married and have two kids. For another - not so good.

But grad students are adults and if the atmosphere is professional then they will have to measure up.

You can't restrict people from dating in your lab (CPP) - but you can make sure that everyone understands that the lab is a place of work. And at a place of work, you treat everyone with respect. Personal problems shouldn't (but often do) interfere with work. Figuring out how to keep the person problems from affecting your work, is one of the non-science lessons that grad students learn.

If they do affect others in a negative way, then you address it, like you did GMP.

Anonymous said...

This is Southern prof again - thank you for writing this post, GMP!

As I had written to you, at the moment everything seems fine. No noticeable drop in productivity or overall lab morale. However I wanted to add some details to illustrate the pitfalls in this specific situation as I see them. One of the students in this couple is a "non-traditional" one i.e returning to school after a while and somewhat older than the other one. The difference in the level of maturity between them concerns me and makes me wonder how the relationship will pan out.

The other thing is that the younger student when she joined my lab wasn't terribly sure if she wanted to do an MS or a PhD. For now she seems set on the latter but I still sense a certain ambivalence there. If she changes her mind and goes for an MS then she'll be out of the lab within a year. If so, I wonder whether the other one will also decide to leave to follow her. That means I lose two out of my four person lab...
(BTW so far the other two, both techs and married ladies seem fine with these two coupling up).

*Sigh* I'm trying not to drive myself too crazy by hypothesizing disaster scenarios. But yeah, to echo DrugMonkey, it's giving me the heebie-jeebies too.

Jean Grey said...

My boyfriend and I started dating when we were grad students in the same lab. We worked on different projects and even in different rooms, so there was a fair bit of separation between us while in the lab. I think we did a pretty good job of keeping our personal life at home.

As for meddlesome advisors... well, let's just say I have stories to tell. Before we started dating, our advisor was abnormally interested in my personal relationships with the other males in the lab. He requested status updates (that's putting it very politely) seemingly weekly. Of course when my boyfriend and I actually did start dating, our advisor's previous behavior caused us (to attempt) to hide our relationship. I felt guilty, but of course he found out eventually (apparently advisors are not as clueless as grad students may think they are, haha), and in an odd turn of events he told me that he approved and subsquently left us alone.

I know of at least a few other couples who worked in the same lab and each situation seemed to be similar to mine. The only negative relationship-related instances that I can think of actually involved faculty dating their own graduate students and advisors bringing their relationships to work. (I guess no one's perfect, even in academia!)

In the end, I really think whether or not intralab dating is a problem really depends on the people involved. If a couple is mature enough to leave their relationship at home, then the relationship has no business being discussed. If the couple is screaming and yelling at each other during fights or groping each other inappropriately, that's obviously a different story and in that case I would hope/expect an advisor would intervene.

The part of the discussion here on the blog that bothers me is that Souther Prof seems to be taking the relationship personally. (I may be misinterpreting your comments, if I am I do apologize, nor do I mean this as a direct/personal attack on you.) But you are wondering how the relationship will pan out and if half of the pair will remain in the lab when the other half leaves, for instance. Is this really any of a professor's business? Yes, I do understand that their decisions to stay in the program or leave do affect you in terms of personnel, but grad students can be replaced. And how is their leaving any different from a student falling ill, or having a family member fall ill, or deciding that grad school is not for them, etc? To me, why they stay or leave is not really for you to worry about, instead professors should be worrying about what science the students doing while they're still on the payroll.

(Sheesh I write a lot, sorry.)

Anonymous said...

Jean Grey - it seems to me you *are* misinterpreting my comments. I can't understand why you would be bothered by an anonymous request for advice I left on the blog of a senior faculty member about my private concerns.

Perhaps it's because, without knowing anything about my situation beyond what I shared, you have taken certain notions for granted. For instance, graduate students are NOT at all easy to come by in my department or my school, particularly if one is new faculty. The two I referred to are the only full-time members of my lab (the two techs work 5 hour days and have no intellectual input in the projects). I've spent a lot of valuable time training them and making sure they have interesting and tractable projects. Unlike the adviser you mentioned (whose attitude you might be projecting on me), the only daily updates I request from my students are about their scientific progress.

Most importantly - and perhaps you did not read my original comment that GMP quoted where I stated this - I have said nothing to either of them about their relationship. In other words, there was nothing in my post to suggest I had plans to verbalize my concerns to this couple without due cause. Quite the opposite.

You may breezily state that to you whether my grad students stay or leave is not really for me to worry about. Well, I beg to disagree.
As a new tenure-track professor with limited time, startup money and personnel to establish my research program on a stable footing so I can secure funding and publish papers, I think I have every right and cause to worry about a scenario which could cause the entire intellectual hub of my lab to fall apart in short order.

If my stating that worry here bothers you so much, then that's your problem. And yes, I would be equally worried if my students were thinking of leaving or were otherwise placed in a disruptive environment due to illness, family issues or what-have-you.

- Southern prof

Namnezia said...

I think if people in your lab start to date there's really nothing you can do about it, or should you, unless you are asked to intervene. It may not be ideal - but in this case you are powerless to do anything about it. Plus several of my friends married their lab mates...

GMP said...

I can understand why at first glance Southern prof's comment of Oct 24, at 10:03 AM might come across like he/she is being meddlesome, but I really dont't think that his/her interest in the longevity of the students' relationship is driven by curiosity at all. Rather, Southern prof is understandably very anxious to protect the precious investment of time and startup funds that is going into these two students. When you are new on TT, everything hinges on your first few students. If you burn your startup on them and they leave without producing much you are totally screwed.
The fact that Southern prof hasn's talked to the students at all does speak to the fact that curiosity is not the issue here.

I remember vividly my first years on tenure track and still mourn the three semesters worth of RA from my startup funds that were burned on a couple of complete flakes. So I think I understand where Southern prof is coming from and why he/she is anxious about the situation. Sharing anonymously like this is a great way to bounce some ideas around without advertising one's concerns to the people in real life.

Jean Grey said...

Damn internet, my last paragraph must have come out totally the opposite way that I meant it, despite my preemptive apology/disclaimer. Sorry again.

GMP said...

Jean Grey, as you say, this is Internet, and sometimes things don't come out the way we intend them. But no worries! Your comments are always greatly appreciated.