If you are reading this, chances are you caught yesterday's, shall we say, unfavorable reactions by Dr. Isis and Zuska to my post “Cultural Diversity in a Research Lab”, followed by a flurry of comments. You get full credit only if you read the original post and comments, and not relied on Isis' or Zuska's digests, because we are all scientists, and we should not take anyone's opinion for granted.
So let's wrap this up with a few comments left after yesterday’s post:
Comrade PhysioProf said...
And isn't it a lovely fucking coincidence that this "Trojan horse" strategy allows the privileged to tell the oppressed to just shut the fuck up, lay low, and not rock the boat--i.e., not do anything that might disturb existing power relations?
June 3, 2010 5:05 AM
GMP (GeekMommyProf) said...
CPP,
Yeah, I get from Zuska's article that I am now an agent for the oppressor...
But what should I tell my students instead: you will get a job because in all fairness the world owes you one? You just get good and angry and you will get a job?
And for the last time: whoever thinks I am one of the privileged and doing this out of convenience, I am not. I am a 1st generation immigrant, English is not my 1st language. Where I got as a woman in this field and in this country was by playing by the current rules of the game. My personal clout was too small to change the rules, so I decided to show "the oppressors" that I can beat them at their own game. This is what I am advocating to my students, as this is what I know to work.
Rocking the boat while having little clout will get you nowhere (except maybe wet). Once you actually are in the system you have more power to make changes.
Or alternatively my international students can remain out of the system, unemployed, and angry. But as long as they gave the oppressors' boat a good shake, I am sure they will feel great.
June 3, 2010 6:47 AM
Isis the Scientist said...
If you write a pseudonymous blog, no one is going to know that you are an immigrant/brown/a chicken/etc. What they will read is a post that tells the foreign kids to shower and learn the language. I still may not agree with you entirely, but what you wrote in your last comment is infinitely more informative and heartfelt than the above post was.
If you're going to blog using a pseudonym, you have to remember that people don't know you're not a trained monkey unless you provide them with a point of reference.
June 3, 2010 7:00 AM
I call hypocrisy: if I am an immigrant whose 1st language is not English, it's sort of OK that I tell foreign kids to learn English and take showers, but if I am not an immigrant, then I am a bigoted overprivileged byatch and the same comment is unacceptable? Is there any scenario in which a benevolent American-born native English speaker is permitted to give the same advice? Does the comment not have a face value irrespective of who gives it?
I was going to mention my foreign-born status in the original post, but decided not to because I think it’s too personal and revealing. But people apparently interpolate as they will in the absence of information… But wait, isn’t that prejudice?
I am going to allow comments to this post today, and then I will close them.
There are other interesting issues to discuss, apart from my nonexistent xenophobia.
15 comments:
Sigh... I really think you should think hard about why your post caused the reaction it did, rather than dismissing the criticism as coming from "a bunch of angry ladies" and "political correctness". That is a tactic that one would expect from Fox News - to mock and dismiss their critics. Judging from the comments on your and Dr. Isis's posts, its not just a minority of two angry ladies that disagree with you. Zuska's point was that you said something that came off as biased and narrow minded, you got called on it, and you should learn from your mistakes and move on. Nobody is calling you the oppressor. Simply that your justifications are apologies for the status quo, well intentioned or not.
I think you just got jumped into the gang, GMP...
GMP, it's not hypocrisy. It's context. And I'm glad you provided it. I still disagree with your lab rules, frankly, but now I understand that you see this as a way of helping your students survive, and that even if it's not the most sensitive way to handle cultural variation in language use and hygiene, at least it's coming from a good place.
I'm sure you were hurt, maybe in some ways punished career-wise, both for being female and for being a non-native speaker of English. And I see that your rules are intended to force students to conform in an unfriendly science world so that they don't get othered. But ultimately, you end up othering them yourself and perpetrating oppression, and I suspect you create a less comfortable space which, given all the time I am guessing they spend in the lab, is a shame. Lab is like a second home when you're a grad student and postdoc, so you should be able to let your hair down, speak your own language, talk politics if that's what you like. Your lab members should be grown ups enough to work this stuff out themselves, and only come to you when they can't. And then it's your job to help them figure out how their discomfort about another language is problematic, or maybe that they need to have a direct conversation about deodorant use, or whatever.
I appreciate your sharing your thinking. Honestly, you're not a blogger unless you have a kerfuffle.
If you're going to talk about diversity and gender issues, probably easier to get used to these 'unfavourable reactions' by Isis and Zuska. (A very polite description of their posts, if I may say so.) You will probably see a lot more of them. The strength of these reactions have smothered a few good bloggers who used to talk about such issues.
Good luck.
I thought it was fairly clear from the original post that these rules were meant to help the students...or at the very least, help the students and others 'live together' in the lab, hopefully with longer term positive ramifications.
GMP, to me you sound like a concerned mentor trying to do a good job for your students. To be honest, maybe a few things could have been said better in the post, but the pile-on is unwarranted. Ironically, the same people who insist that you should create a safe and constructive environment in your lab (which it seems that you do) also say that when somebody is called out on dealing with people it should be harsh and uncomfortable. They sneer at suggestions that this should be done in a nicer manner.
Good manners for thee but not for me. Or something.
BTW, I suspect that the hygiene issues in the lab are not so much about [whatever ethnic group] but rather about geeky, 20-something men.
It seems to me that your 'offence' (if it can be called such) was that you came off as defending a system that makes everybody conform in ways that lose diversity (even if 'diversity' is still a popular buzzword). Still, I think through your clarifications we've been able to see you do care about your students as individuals.
Personally, I think students need mentoring that comes at certain issues from two angles- 1) practical, down-and-dirty 'what to do to get through' type of advice
AND
2) idealistic, inspiring, 'together we can change this screwed up system' messages.
Without 1), they don't make it into positions to enact change. Without 2), by the time they get there, they're too invested and complacent for change to ever happen.
I love Ms. Mentor- she's hilarious. But still, she sometimes drives me NUTS because it seems like she's ALWAYS advocating Trojan horse strategies. "this is how you need to conform" messages rub me the wrong way, even when they are well-meant. I don't like being *forced* to eat vegetables, either.
Furthermore, if it makes you feel any better, there are plenty of times Isis or CPP have given advice in a way that implicitly accepts an ethically indefensible status quo. Sometimes, they remember to preface things with "it's not right that the world is this way, but the fact is...". This is a sound communication strategy. But honestly, from this one student's perspective, there is quite a lot of fairly decent practical down-and-dirty advice. Sharing with students ways to be their authentic selves and make the system work for them... that's a rare feat. It's a worthy goal.
omg quickly getting comment in before the comment closes...
I'm very torn between feeling deepest sympathies that your blog got torn at and feeling a little jealous that you have so much attention, especially from Isis. It might have been a slightly unfair post she wrote, but it helped me and quite a few other people find this blog, and realise that this blog is not the mad ravings of a crazy bigot, but actually looks like quite a cool blog to follow with interesting discussions and things.
Deep breath and move on I suggest (although it feels very weird making suggestions to someone so much senior than me!) We know you have a lot of awesome things to write about lab work, and I'm looking forward to reading them.
And before we leave the language issue altogether I think from my perspective at least it is slightly different in the UK, where there still are conferences in Europe that take place in other languages, and I know people who've worked in Geneva, France, etc, and came out with a decent grasp of the language of the country in question.
But keep blogging and I'll keep reading. And commenting. I comment a lot :p
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Ha ha. I loved this entire exchange. GMP I figured out you were 1st generation immigrant right off the bat.
Oh and I got the "go back to your country" line too. Pissed me off big time. I know what you mean about rocking the boat only means you get wet. Better to play the game and play it better.
The comment I left on Zuska's post..
Give me a break! What people complain about GMP's post is nothing but liberal self-righteous blather. That is correct---liberal, self-righteous blather. In order to show everyone how PC they are, they do not recognize that they advise something that actually goes against interests of the same people they supposedly care about.
What is incredible to me is that GMP's post was entirely about professional concerns and the things that influence such concerns. She clearly limited herself to her trainees' professional development, and what can be actually done in in the lab order to facilitate that (and also, her research activities in her own lab---isn't that why she has the job after all?).
"Those experiences led me to reflect on the U.S. mania for showering, deodorizing, and perfuming away any trace of normal body scent quite differently than I otherwise would have."
Perhaps have you asked yourself if you are spending time around wrong type of people? At my university, I know many people who smell like just showered in the perfume, the chances of them being American are just the same as being non-American.
"kt wants to remind us all the GMP is herself an immigrant, as if that somehow makes everything in her post okay. I'm not buying it."
There, that is the problem. Somehow, this very self-righteous thought that there always must be something inherently wrong when someone tries to give minorities a very valuable and practical professional advice. Yes, that must true, because we---the enlightened elitists—--believe that is true, and we are the only to have the moral right to judge that. Did you even read GMP's post carefully? Granted, not all immigrants treat other immigrants nice, but the failure of separating good advice from bad one because everyone had pulled the garb of PCness only hurts the same minorities.
I am an immigrant myself, and going to be a PI in a few months. And you know what, I completely agree with what GMP said in her post, and I am going to implement the rules myself. I wish my advisor was as thoughtful in giving career advice as GMP is. We are smart, very hard working, and we do not need your self-righteous sympathy. All we need is a good professional advice, so if you do not like to give one, fine, but please at least do not trash the person who takes efforts to give one.
I should add this one more thing to my comment above lest it come across as snarky. All this advice from GMP, FSP and others is super useful. I haven't been able to get into the blogging thing myself, but I owe all who write a big debt. So thank you.
Looks like you made it--your blog will get lots of hits now! It sounds to me like the pile on was due to a communication issue. When Americans hear "cultural diversity" they think "not white Christian American", so the hygiene discussion sounded like you were calling foreigners smelly.
I apparently stepped in it too (see here) for thinking out loud incautiously about language use and safety in the lab. I can see how my comment is easily interpreted to be insulting, but I still think these issues are important enough to try to discuss even in the imperfect medium of the Internet. How else can we figure them out without talking about them?
I understand where you are coming from, too. This summer I have encountered the "doesn't wash frequently/doesn't use deodorant" problem in my students' shared office space. There are 7 people in a pretty small room which REEKS of unwashed BO when this guy is in it. I never thought I would have to explain North American hygiene norms to someone when I was working towards my PhD. This guy isn't my student, but his advisor (a white American man) has washing frequency issues of his own (like his clothes are oily and sour smelling) so he is not the right person for the task.
And I agree with previous commenters that explaining how the system works is crucially important. Without this knowledge success will be difficult for your students if they plan on staying in the US. If you are successful in helping them, your students can pick and choose consciously which norms to flout and which norms to comply with to maximize their chance at success without selling their souls.
Thanks everyone for the comments!
For the sake of brevity, I am not addressing each comment separately, but rest assured that I really appreciate your thoughts (and encouragement!)
I think it is clear there are some important issues that don't have black/white answers, and
I am glad that all the extra exposure brought new readers to this blog. Welcome!
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